The bluffman School of hard knocks

[motherfunky]

Thought id start a bad beat thread, i was getting tired of being sucked off at NL so i thought id chance my arm at PL.

Full Tilt Poker Game #2738265749: Table Nieman (6 max) - $0.05/$0.10 - Pot Limit Hold'em - 14:08:19 ET - 2007/06/22
Seat 2: mercy73 ($7.85)
Seat 3: Ugly Inside ($20.90)
Seat 5: Merriman_Fl ($2.60)
Seat 6: spottyzebra ($7.60)
Merriman_Fl posts the small blind of $0.05
spottyzebra posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ugly Inside [Ad Qd]
mercy73 raises to $0.20
Ugly Inside raises to $0.45
Merriman_Fl folds
spottyzebra folds
mercy73 raises to $0.70
Ugly Inside calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [Th Kc Jc]
mercy73: lol
mercy73 has 15 seconds left to act
mercy73 bets $0.90
Ugly Inside raises to $1.80
Ugly Inside: lol
mercy73 raises to $6.95
Ugly Inside raises to $12.10
mercy73 calls $0.20, and is all in
Ugly Inside shows [Ad Qd]
mercy73 shows [Jh Kh]
Uncalled bet of $4.95 returned to Ugly Inside
*** TURN *** [Th Kc Jc] [3h]
Ugly Inside: ouch
*** RIVER *** [Th Kc Jc 3h] [Kd]
Ugly Inside shows a straight, Ace high
mercy73 shows a full house, Kings full of Jacks
mercy73 wins the pot ($14.85) with a full house, Kings full of Jacks
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $15.85 | Rake $1
Board: [Th Kc Jc 3h Kd]
Seat 2: mercy73 showed [Jh Kh] and won ($14.85) with a full house, Kings full of Jacks
Seat 3: Ugly Inside (button) showed [Ad Qd] and lost with a straight, Ace high
Seat 5: Merriman_Fl (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: spottyzebra (big blind) folded before the Flop


I didnt win one hand against that girl, she was catching boat vs my set etc etc. On a lighter note I cracked AA with my KK. Its becoming all too predictable.

[Nynus]

Ohhhhh, moving to PL to get away from the bad beats in NL isn't the way to go. Usually the correct strategy in PL is to raise it up when you're on a draw in order to get paid off big when you hit.

i.e. The flop gives you a open ended straight draw, you have over cards, and the pots at $2. You bet the pot and get two callers. You miss on the turn but bet the pot again, now $8. You hit on the river making the nuts and bet the pot now $24 and get one caller. You win $72.

The basic odds are that you hit and win 1 outta 4 times.

$72 once - $35 (your bets) = $37 profit

But you lose 3 times costing you about $11 on the draws. (assuming you're not going to bet on the river if you missed, but you might pick up some pots there with a bluff)

Net expected value on the OESD = $4

----------

Now here's what could happen if you DON'T bet the draw.

Flop, oesd, check around: $2 pot

Turn, missed, check around: $2 pot

River, you make the nuts: You bet $2, you get called by one person and win a $6 pot.

You win once outta four times for a profit of $4

The three times you lose costs you $3 (plus, it's doubtful you'll pick up the pot with a weak bluff of $2)

Net expected value on the weak play of the OESD = $1

----------

The bottom line is, the better PL players know that the game is set up to be a suckout fest due to the implied odds of boosting the pot size at the start of the hand. They take advantage of that by betting their draws from the outset.

This is even more true than limit play. Because in limit play, you don't get the chance to make a big bet at the end and get paid off by a single player. Most of the times when it gets to heads up in limit play, you're losing money by staying in on a draw.

Pot limit is not an intermediate game between Limit and No Limit. It's got more math, more strategy, and more situations that can fuck you up than Limit or No-Limit. However, if you're skilled at it, the game allows you to reel in some pretty meaty fish for dinner.


On a side note, you should also sit down at the table with MORE money in a PL game than a NL game.

In a $1/$2 No-limit game, I'm usually comfortable sitting down with $200 or so plus another $200 in my pocket, and then getting it off the table and taking a break with I get to $500. In Pot Limit, I wouldn't dream of approaching a $1/$2 game with less than $500 plus another $500 in my pocket.

Why? Because you aren't going to be sticking around on a draw in NL if it's going to cost you an arm and a leg to do so. In PL, if you're playing good poker, you have to stick around and be aggressive on your draws. That means you're playing more hands, and it's going to cost you money to do so. If you don't have the money on the table in PL, then basically your playing no limit, against guys that are playing PL. Not a good idea either.

Here's how a round of betting in PL would work.

PL:

Preflop:

P1: $1 blind
P2: $2 blind : pot = $3
P3: Raise to $5, (size of the pot plus the $2 blind) : pot = $8
P4: Call : pot = $13
P5: Fold
P6: Call : pot = $18
P7: Call : pot = $23
P8: Fold
P9: Fold
---
P1: Fold
P2: Fold

Flop:

P3: Bet $23 : pot = $46
P4: Fold
P6: Raise to $69 ($46 in the pot plus the $23 bet) : pot = $115
P7: Fold
---
P3: Call $46 : pot = $161

Turn:

P3: Check
P6: Bet $161 : pot = $322
--
P3: Call $161 : pot = $483

River:

P3: Bet $483 : pot = $966
P6: call $483 : pot = $1449


So, the net profit on the hand for P3 or P6 was $731

But look at this, he was only betting/calling on the turn of $161 for that chance of a $966 pot. Or he was looking at the implied odds of 6 to 1. I do believe I'm sticking around on a 4 to 1 draw if I'm going to get a 6 to 1 payoff. However, if you don't have the chips, you can't call the turn on a draw because you're only going to get paid off 2 to 1 on a 4 to 1 draw.

So, it's not uncommon for a $1/$2 PL game to get HUGE pots.

If it was NL, P3 or P6 would over bet the pot at some point, and the other one being on a draw or had already caught would push or call if he caught, or fold if he was drawing, and either he's called or wins. The size of your stack once it gets over the size of the pot in NL wouldn't matter if someone was on a draw. They're only going to get paid off at slightly higher than 1 to 1. That means calling an all in on a draw in a NL game while heads up doesn't pay off.






Hope that helps some.

[Niccivan]

I love omaha pot limit. thats where i make alot of my money (i also lose a lot of there too)

[Nynus]

That's why the serious players in Omaha prefer Pot Limit. Omaha is a drawing game. With 4 cards in your hand you can be looking at 26 outs twice to the nuts. At that point you're betting the living shit out of the pot AND hoping for a raise so you can re-raise it and make a killing when your draw does hit.

When it misses, the guy that's been calling you down DOESN'T get paid off on the massive pot bet on the river. (naturally you're not calling when you've got shit) Whereas, when you hit, you usually DO get paid off unless your opponent was on a draw as well.

[bluffmanxx]

looks like mr. can't catch a card will be staying away from pot limit

otherwise i'll probably have another thread about losing with my name in the title.

[jcbuckeye]

I love omaha pot limit. thats where i make alot of my money (i also lose a lot of there too)

Nyuk nyuk

[motherfunky]

Thanks for the long winded relpy Paul, I do understand implied odds. But in the short time I was sat at that table again AAs got cracked 3 times out of 3 heads up.

It seems like agressive betting with any old shit gets rewarded on FT over and over and over again.

Online poker is a load of cock isnt it?

PS sorry bout using your nick in the title Doug but I dont know your full name and address

[Lacie]

[bluffmanxx]

oh it's quite OK....like you i am not afraid to share my horror stories and the seemingly endless losses after getting my money in with a large advantage.

it may not be rigged, but it sure does suck.

[motherfunky]

lol