Tax Positions Of Obama and McCain

[spaceboy761]

Hot asian chicks dig the ROARRR!!!!

[bluffmanxx]

Originally Posted by Garmer

I guess it depends how you look at it - the Bush administration has overspended but if they hadn't insisted on cutting back on taxes at the same time the problem wouldn't have been as big. True disastermight be a little over the top but I'm sure the thousands of families who've been forced to sell their houses and move elsewhere would use a similar terminology 77.000 houses went on forced sale during July in California and Florida alone. I'm not saying the Bush administration can be blamed for the financial crisis, but I do believe they could have done something earlier to help the problem.
Fortunately, things are starting to look brighter with the dollar and rising stocks but I still consider the economic policy of the current administration as reckless.

I think I might be getting off-topic, so back to the tax-positions of the candidates

Wall Street Journal compares the US economy under Bush to other world economies since 2000. Warning, article contains actual facts

How does the performance of the U.S. economy really compare with other advanced economies over the eight years of George Bush's presidency? Data published by the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), the World Bank, the International Comparison Program (ICP) (a cooperative venture coordinated by the World Bank) and the U.S. Census Bureau allow a nonpartisan, factual assessment.

[bluffmanxx]

As for McCain's Tax Plan....here is an opinion, also from the WSJ.

John McCain Has a Tax Plan To Create Jobs

First, he proposes a package of tax incentives that will create jobs and raise earnings by inducing firms to invest more in the U.S. Second, he is strongly committed to blocking any increase in tax rates while doubling the personal exemptions for families with children, which will reduce the tax burden on working Americans. Third, he proposes a new, refundable tax credit that will increase health-care coverage, reduce the cost of health care, and provide more funds for families and individuals to purchase health care.

[bluffmanxx]

Originally Posted by Garmer

I guess it depends how you look at it - the Bush administration has overspended but if they hadn't insisted on cutting back on taxes at the same time the problem wouldn't have been as big. True disastermight be a little over the top but I'm sure the thousands of families who've been forced to sell their houses and move elsewhere would use a similar terminology 77.000 houses went on forced sale during July in California and Florida alone. I'm not saying the Bush administration can be blamed for the financial crisis, but I do believe they could have done something earlier to help the problem.
Fortunately, things are starting to look brighter with the dollar and rising stocks but I still consider the economic policy of the current administration as reckless.

I think I might be getting off-topic, so back to the tax-positions of the candidates

Any idea why banks were encouraged to make these crappy loans to unqualified borrowers?? Think the cries of "community organizers" and activists that minorities and the working poor were being shut out of the housing market had anything to do with it??

[bluffmanxx]

Originally Posted by Garmer

Are you talking about Obama or the current administration? The economy has been a true disaster during Bush and no real effort seem to have been made in order to correct it even with all the warning signs that has been showing. Americas debt is soon passing 10.000 billion dollar...that's 10.000.000.000.000 dollar! Add the health- and social expenses that the administration has commited to and the number is 53.000 billion dollar (epn.dk - "USA er på fallittens rand"). If we're talking "passing the buck and dooming the following administration to economic failure" then that must be it.
Ironically it's China who's been keeping Americas head above water by increasing their dollar reserves and buying US stocks - but imagine if they had decided to switch to Euros and sell out their dollar reserve. The dollar would be in free fall and the US would be bankrupt.
Anyway, with a debt like this it's going to be unpleasant no matter if it's McCain or Obama in office. I assume the "huge tax hike" is Obamas considerations on imposing a 2 percent to 4 percent tax on incomes above $250,000. Even though it definitely allows him to dodge a political bullet by waiting a decade to implement it, it can hardly be seen as dooming the following administration can it? Also, I find it interesting when McCain wants to expand President Bush's tax cuts and instead "cut down on expenses". Could it possibly be the military expenses he has in mind?

I live in the country that has the highest tax rate in the world (Denmark). The lowest incomes pay about half in taxes and the richest part of the population pay a marginal tax as high as about 70%. Yet several recent reports has listed the danish population as the happiest in the world. That considered, a progressive tax system can't be that bad after all - or in other words having 2 cars instead of 3 wont make the rich people have a shitty life

By the way, did anyone see the movie I.O.U.S.A yet? I haven't had the opportunity yet, but it's probably very relevant for this debate.

Tried to edit in a couple of points to my original reply but was too late...so here they are....

First let me say that I have nothing negative to say about Denmark. I'm sure I could find some negative stuff if I really wanted to, but if the citizens are so damn happy why should my opinion count

About your comparison of Denmark to the U.S....apples to oranges.

Denmark's small population, (about 5.5 million) the fact that it is so racially and ethnically homogeneous and has such a slow rate of population growth make meaningful comparisons with the US quite difficult.

[bluffmanxx]

Originally Posted by bluffmanxx

As for McCain's Tax Plan....here is an opinion, also from the WSJ.

John McCain Has a Tax Plan To Create Jobs

thought i included this quote from the article...but did not, so better later than never.

To create jobs, Mr. McCain will reduce the corporate tax rate -- now at 35% the second highest among all industrial countries -- to one that doesn't penalize firms for doing business here. To encourage small businesses to expand, he will fight against higher tax rates on their income.

[spaceboy761]

Originally Posted by bluffmanxx

Tried to edit in a couple of points to my original reply but was too late...so here they are....

First let me say that I have nothing negative to say about Denmark. I'm sure I could find some negative stuff if I really wanted to, but if the citizens are so damn happy why should my opinion count

About your comparison of Denmark to the U.S....apples to oranges.

Denmark's small population, (about 5.5 million) the fact that it is so racially and ethnically homogeneous and has such a slow rate of population growth make meaningful comparisons with the US quite difficult.

OK, how about comparing Denmark to Connecticut? Much more fair!

[Garmer]

Originally Posted by bluffmanxx

Wall Street Journal compares the US economy under Bush to other world economies since 2000. Warning, article contains actual facts

Facts are nice but easy to manipulate to show a certain picture - it seems to me the facts from the opinion in the WSJ link have been carefully selected by the writer to form a....well, opinion As far as I can see it doesn't include the declining dollar, inflation or the national debt which are the main areas the Bush administration has been criticised for. High employment rates and a growing economy is all good but does not necessarily equal to a balanced economy or a "Good Economic Record". Here's a few more findings/facts on those topics:

That's $8.8 trillion – an increase of $3.1 trillion dollars since January 20, 2001. And that amounts to a jump of 54% during Mr. Bush's watch.

If you wanted to pay it off, dividing it equally among the U.S. population (estimated by the U.S. Census Bureau to be 302,103,675), it would come to $29,245.82 for every man, woman and child.

Sot it's not really hard to understand why Mr. Bush almost never mentions it. The National Debt has gone up more on his watch than under any other president.
(...)
It hardly gives the president bragging rights about fiscal discipline.
President Bush And The National Debt, Bush Bashes "Tax And Spend" Dems But Never Mentions The Soaring Debt - CBS News

It is important to see just how badly the U.S. dollar has declined in value to get some appreciation for the problem. From the year 2001 through the year 2007, the Dollar has declined at a compound rate of over 7% per year to the Euro. In terms of the British pound, the dollar has declined at a compound rate of over 5.5% per year. The same is true of an index of major currencies against the dollar as compiled by the Federal Reserve System. An index that includes a broader range of currencies produced by the Federal Reserve shows a more moderate rate of decline of about 3.3% per year. Although, whichever way you measure it, the U.S. dollar has not fared well in world markets during much of the Bush Administration.
Inflation and the Declining Dollar - Seeking Alpha

Bush represents the worst-performing economy in the G-8 after Italy, with growth of 0.5 percent this year set to lag behind 1.6 percent in the U.K., 1.4 percent in the euro area, 1.4 percent in Japan and 1.3 percent in Canada, according to International Monetary Fund forecasts.
Bloomberg.com: Worldwide

Here's a few more hard facts just for fun

Number of Americans living in poverty in 2001 31.6 million
Number of Americans living in poverty in 2008 36.5 million
[U.S. Census Bureau, Aug. 2007]

Total consumer credit debt in 2001 $7.65 trillion
Total consumer credit debt in 2008 $12.8 trillion
[Insurance Information Institute]

Average price of a gallon of gasoline on January 3, 2000 $1.59
Average price of a gallon of gasoline on January 7, 2008 $3.14
United States Energy Administration. Retail Gasoline Historical Prices

The number of Americans without health insurance in 2000 38.4 million
The number of Americans without health insurance in 2006 46.9 million
U.S. Census Bureau, Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States, 2006. August 2007

The national debt in 2001 $5.7 trillion
The national debt in Jan. 2008 $9.2 trillion
[U.S. Dept. of the Treasury]

U.S. budget balance in fiscal year 2000 $236 billion surplus
U.S. budget balance in fiscal year 2007 $354 billion deficit
House Office of Management and Budget. Historical Tables; White House Office of Management and Budget. "Table S-1. Budget Totals."

The Real State of the Union 2008 By the Numbers

Surely you can go find indications or facts that says a low dollar and increasing inflation might be good for an economy (which can be true - I doubt we can find anyone that says the current national debt can be positive though ), but from all I have read and believe the Bush administration has not had a responsible policy in these areas. Ben Bernankes worrisome statements along the way illustrate that too.

Originally Posted by bluffmanxx

First let me say that I have nothing negative to say about Denmark. I'm sure I could find some negative stuff if I really wanted to, but if the citizens are so damn happy why should my opinion count

About your comparison of Denmark to the U.S....apples to oranges.

Denmark's small population, (about 5.5 million) the fact that it is so racially and ethnically homogeneous and has such a slow rate of population growth make meaningful comparisons with the US quite difficult.

Agreed, wont make sense to make direct comparisons with those kind of differences. And there's plenty of negative stuff here btw, hospital waiting lists, lack of labor, crime etc. etc. I just stated that even with a progressive tax-system and a marginal tax among the highest in the world people here are happy. I guess I just think there's something fundamentally wrong when the rich get richer and the poor are left behind which will in many ways be the result if McCain is elected.

On a sidenote I found the trailer for I.O.U.S.A - I think it will be a very interesting watch!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBo2xQIWHiM[/media]

[ColdCase]

Garmer makes a convincing argument.

Bush, Bush, Bush.....You actually voted him in ...twice!!
Instead of the 'right' bowing their heads in shame and asking
the public for forgiveness, they continue to feed you the same
old dog and pony show which you all seem to eat up with gusto.

Bon appetite!

[bluffmanxx]

Originally Posted by Garmer

Facts are nice but easy to manipulate to show a certain picture - it seems to me the facts from the opinion in the WSJ link have been carefully selected by the writer to form a....well, opinion As far as I can see it doesn't include the declining dollar, inflation or the national debt which are the main areas the Bush administration has been criticised for. High employment rates and a growing economy is all good but does not necessarily equal to a balanced economy or a "Good Economic Record". Here's a few more findings/facts on those topics:







Here's a few more hard facts just for fun



Surely you can go find indications or facts that says a low dollar and increasing inflation might be good for an economy (which can be true - I doubt we can find anyone that says the current national debt can be positive though ), but from all I have read and believe the Bush administration has not had a responsible policy in these areas. Ben Bernankes worrisome statements along the way illustrate that too.



Agreed, wont make sense to make direct comparisons with those kind of differences. And there's plenty of negative stuff here btw, hospital waiting lists, lack of labor, crime etc. etc. I just stated that even with a progressive tax-system and a marginal tax among the highest in the world people here are happy. I guess I just think there's something fundamentally wrong when the rich get richer and the poor are left behind which will in many ways be the result if McCain is elected.

On a sidenote I found the trailer for I.O.U.S.A - I think it will be a very interesting watch!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBo2xQIWHiM[/media]

I think I already agreed here and elsewhere about the deficit/debt problems.

The huge debt is a major reason for the declining dollar - so we agree again....

and i have no quibble with your numbers that include 2008 only. the economy is most certianly "sluggish" and "lagging behind" at the moment but it is far from a full fledged disaster. (that's being stalled as long as possible)

poverty levels look to be about the same when adjusted for population growth. and did you know that on average, those living "in poverty" have a better standard of living than a huge portion of Europe?? I posted that info previously...but of course it was pretty much ignored. i'll try to repost if i can find it.

as for the consumer debt...sigh...hope they bought some good stuff. many people just can't live without their cell phones and flat screen TV's. oh, and before you or anyone else attacks, i realize that some people are in a position where they have no choice and increase their personal debt for basic expenses.

gas prices are still lower than europe though and the reason they have gone up is because of long term energy policy. bush didn't fix it, but he didn't create it either. clinton did not have emerging economies in china, and india and elsewhere squeezing suppy - and he did drive the final nail into the us nuclear policy.

health insurance stats are even more manipulated than economic stats. do i have to start explaining why those figures are bogus??

again, we already agreed on the debt.

budget in 2000 was bolstered by that wonderful dot.com bubble that pushed the nasdaq to 5,000 - then reality set in BEFORE bush took office, then of course there was 9/11. so let's make sure everything is in the proper perspective.