Democrat/Repulican

[ColdCase]

We are very comfortable here. Some of us are extremely rich and some of us not so.

Higher taxes or no......we have a Casino here that rakes in millions every day.

We take vacations, buy SUV's (not moi), send our kids to universities
and we have a steady stream of crack whores to chose from when we
don't feel like hob nobbin' at the Polo field.

[spaceboy761]

'Every man for himself' economics in capitalism was proven to be problematic in the 50's. Each person does the best when they behave in their own best interests AND the best interests of the group. There's nothing altruistic about it... you will wind up with more money to spend if you are willing to pay a little bit more to create a more efficient economic system. Intuition says to keep your money in your clenched fists, but that will leave you with less disposable income in the long run since the dollars you manage to cling to will not buy you as much.

Remember the scene in A Beautiful Mind where John Nash and his friends are at the bar? When every man acted alone in his own interest (and went after the one hot blond chick), none of them got laid. When they all ignored the blonde chick all went after the brunettes, they all got laid. American culture tells us to always aim for the stars and the blonde chick, and this mental hurdle has held us back economically. We work much longer hours and innovate much better technologies to achieve a slighter better standard of living. Imagine what we could do under a proper tax system.

[Mastro]

German population 82.3 million

US population 305.5 million

and their tax burden is only 10% higher then ours? how much higher would it be if they had to insure another 220+ million people?

[spaceboy761]

Lower, because they could scale the system better. Since when does size hurt you in providing a service? The US could provide healthcare at a much lower per capita cost than Gremany if it chose to.

[bluffmanxx]

Originally Posted by spaceboy761

It took me a while to find this, but I was pretty curious:

http://images.forbes.com/media/2006/...t_Spending.pdf


OK, we have the US at 25.5% (where the fuck in the country are they living?... I guess I'll trust the numbers) and most non-shitty developed countries in the 30%-45% range. Still, you get the idea. People in the US obsess about the overall tax burden and scream about their personal liberties being destroyed by the government, and blah blah blah.

First of all, chill. Second of all, let's focus more on what you GET for your tax dollar instead of wrestling every penny. Look at Germany. Their tax burden is roughly 10% higher than ours, but they also receive zero-interest student loans compared to our college students getting blasted with these 6%-9% private student loans on $50k+ principals. Germans also get heavily subsidized healthcare for all citizens instead of our private insurance system that provides marginally better care at severe costs and doesn't provide realistically affordable care for the 25% of the people with no insurance at all.

the 25.5% is an average based on GDP, not stated income. nobody thinks, oh i only pay 2.77% on social security and medicare as a percentage of GDP. they think about the 7.65% that is withheld from their paycheck no matter what. and if they have a clue, they also realize that their employer pays 7.65% too. (not the 3.77% listed in the chart) also, remember the 40% who don't pay income tax?? factor that in and the percentage for those who actually pay income tax goes up sharply.

but the % of GDP looks about right, wouldn't it be nice if we could all just pay or 25.5% and be done?? oh wait - there is a way - Greg, knows what is coming

The Fair Tax!!!!
It's a 23% national sales tax that replaces ALL federal taxes. (yes even social security tax and the taxes those evil corporations pass on to you) it does not replace state income or sales tax, hence the 2.5% difference from the chart.

back on topic...did it ever occur to anyone that the U.S. is the world superpower because of things like the government not running the personal lives of it's citizens to the extent of other nations??

why did the U.S. become the world power, and not Canada or Kenya or Turkey?? we became what we are for reasons...and that is what this election is about. ignoring the values and policies that made the U.S. powerful and embracing the policies and values that make most of the rest of the world ...um...less powerful. or we can try to hold on to what made the U.S. strong. Sure times change - but some values need to be held onto or you will lose who you are. that is what our nation is slowly doing and this election may well be the tipping point at the worst possible time.

[bluffmanxx]

Originally Posted by spaceboy761

Since when does size hurt you in providing a service?

when 10% of the population is undocumented??

[spaceboy761]

Originally Posted by bluffmanxx

the 25.5% is an average based on GDP, not stated income. nobody thinks, oh i only pay 2.77% on social security and medicare as a percentage of GDP. they think about the 7.65% that is withheld from their paycheck no matter what. and if they have a clue, they also realize that their employer pays 7.65% too. (not the 3.77% listed in the chart) also, remember the 40% who don't pay income tax?? factor that in and the percentage for those who actually pay income tax goes up sharply.

but the % of GDP looks about right, wouldn't it be nice if we could all just pay or 25.5% and be done?? oh wait - there is a way - Greg, knows what is coming

The Fair Tax!!!!
It's a 23% national sales tax that replaces ALL federal taxes. (yes even social security tax and the taxes those evil corporations pass on to you) it does not replace state income or sales tax, hence the 2.5% difference from the chart.

back on topic...did it ever occur to anyone that the U.S. is the world superpower because of things like the government not running the personal lives of it's citizens to the extent of other nations??

why did the U.S. become the world power, and not Canada or Kenya or Turkey?? we became what we are for reasons...and that is what this election is about. ignoring the values and policies that made the U.S. powerful and embracing the policies and values that make most of the rest of the world ...um...less powerful. or we can try to hold on to what made the U.S. strong. Sure times change - but some values need to be held onto or you will lose who you are. that is what our nation is slowly doing and this election may well be the tipping point at the worst possible time.

I don't hate the idea of a single, national, consumption-based tax. I just think that the Fair Tax is a relatively poor implementation of it.

[LadyWrestler]

There is no western style country whose middle class (and up) is paying only 30% of their incomes in taxes. Corporations do not pay taxes...they pass them on or they die. Nearly everything is taxed...homes...rent...goods...services...cars...g asoline...heating oil (indirectly), etc., etc. They would put a meter on your nose and charge you to breathe if they could get away with it! Geez!